Pay-To-Win

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by SwagLikePikachu, Aug 9, 2017.

  1. Juker

    Juker New Member

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    Thinking about this sensibly, Pay-To-Win means that players that pay more can advance faster or access certain things that others cannot. Even if a Free-To-Play player can access certain items or features that donors can buy, this system is still unfair because those who donate can do these much more quickly due to their extreme advantages that come with paying for ranks or items.

    Imagine this scenario: Player 1 is a Free-To-Play while Player 2 is a Donor
    Player 1 really wants to buy ____ for $200,000
    Player 2 also wants to buy the same item.
    If player 2 gets the "Legendary Trainer" rank
    [​IMG]
    He not only has access to extra kits and commands but starts off with $200,000

    This kind of progression ridiculously fast compared to normal players.

    This argument is completely simple-minded as "being caught by anyone" includes everyone.
    What you are saying is that Free-To-Play have some pseudo-legendaries accessible and that donors have these same pseudo-legendaries with their own full-fledged legendaries.

    No, these can very well still be considered pay to win because
    1. Accumulating 90% IVed Pokemon takes a lot of grinding and effort whereas donors can just pay $10 for one
    2. Some legendaries may be obtainable with donating but the point is that only those legendaries can be obtained, everything else is only gotten by donating

    Not "all the features" are free
    upload_2017-10-6_23-29-40.png
    Keep in mind that Free-To-Play players have none of these commands.
    Obviously getting good Pokemon from donating isn't pay to win
    Because a 40% and 90% Tyranitar are even in strength obviously

    While there might not be a finite "end game", there is always more to do. This server is still a pay to win server because progression is much easier if you donate and donators reach the short-term goals that are set out faster.

    My point is not to stop this server from selling unfair advantages to players as this would kill the server in terms of donations if you could only buy cosmetics.
    As many have said, servers live off of donations which only players can provide.
    My proposal is to balance out the donating perks to make it so that non-ranks can achieve perks only held my donors given they put enough effort.
    This would not change the status of the server as Pay-To-Win, but I firmly believe it would be a healthier alternative than what is sold now.
     
  2. Ordaine

    Ordaine Member

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    Donor perks are donor perks. No amount of effort will unlock that.
    Also quality of life does not equal pay-to-win.

    NONE of the below commands offer an unfair advantage. They just offer a better quality of life.
    All players have access to a warp via an npc at every town.
    All players have access to checking IV's and EV's at npcs.
    All players can heal their pokemon via a pokemon center.
    Fly - You can walk/ride a bike.
    [​IMG]

    Not really. A normal player without kits can easily make over 200k in a single day just from hitting pokestops and selling things.
    I've done it. I've also made way more than that in just a few hours from pokestops and challenges.

    They aren't even, however IV's only offer roughly a 10-20% boost of stat. So unless you are min-maxing and making a god team, they are irrelevant. Hence donating for aura pokemon. You get a better looking pokemon with better stats.
    It is more visually appealing than anything.

    It is called donation perks for a reason.
    The only "unfair" advantage and "faster" progression is being able to fly instead of walk, /heal your pokemon without having to /spawn.
    Again as I said above. They are quality of life perks, not necessarily unfair advantages.

    Honestly nothing about this server's donation perks or shops are really unfair.
    A SLIGHT progression boost is really nothing to complain about honestly.
    Having to walk just a little bit more or grind just a bit more is not that big of a deal.
    Everyone still has the same level gates and has to level up their pokemon and trainer level regardless of donator or not.

    Now if they had donator ONLY servers or made it so you can't get past a certain level unless you bought a rank, that is when I would consider it pay to win as you cannot progress unless you actually pay.
    It's pretty sad how the term pay-to-win has been skewed so much these days. Everyone wants their participation trophy and everything for free.
    Without these donation perks and such, this server probably wouldn't have progressed this far in such a short amount of time or wouldn't be as great as it is today.

    Again quality of life does not equal pay-to-win.
     
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  3. MeatFeastMan

    MeatFeastMan Member

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    The main issue here with pokefind, and I've noticed this since it started...

    Having a server where you gain advantages more easily by paying is fine, HOWEVER....making it where those people who can't pay are unable to gain those advantages by other means in-game is unacceptable. Originally I noticed that certain pokemon, such as mewtwo, fossils and so on were not available to players who aren't able to pay real money. Even if we have to spend 100 hours, catch every single pokemon, gain 10 million coins and 1000 tokens to get these advantages, we don't care, AS LONG AS we can do that. That is the issue here.

    No-one has issues with paying for things with real money, as long as you can get them by other means which don't involve using real money in-game. Effort should be rewarded as well as donations, equally.
     
  4. Juker

    Juker New Member

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    Checking with an NPC consumes money

    Whereas donors can just heal on the go without having to go to a Pokemon Center

    We both know that flying is not only faster, but you can scale mountains and oceans much more easily.

    So free-to-play players have to grind for a day for something that donors can get in 20 seconds? Not even mentioning the other perks like kits and eggs for rare pokemon.

    These 10-20% boosts can be detrimental during battles. Matchups that should be obvious end up lopsided because a pokemon doesn't have enough speed or attacking power.
    They are unfair advantages because donators have way more of these "quality of life perks".
     
  5. Ordaine

    Ordaine Member

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    Literally every counter point you made is the definition of "quality of life"
    Faster, easier, less of a grind.
    Walking to a pokecenter, having to spend 2k coins to warp, having to walk up a mountain, having to run around and sell things for money... All quality of life.

    Any halfway decent trainer can easily beat that 10-20% stat difference.
    It's how the pokemon is used. Stats come in to play just a tad. It's all about skill, the pokemon's moves, weaknesses, knowing what to do and when.
    Using a 10-20% stat boost as a crutch will get you no where.
    If you want to talk about what REALLY matters. Proper nature + ability + proper EV training. That is WAY more beneficial in the end that that IV stat boost.

    This reminds me of the other day when the admins did a "Pro" rank giveaway with a little hide and seek on pokeworld.
    After one of the non ranks won, a good majority began to whine about how "unfair" it is.
    Everyone wants their participation trophy with little to no effort.

    At this point you are just complaining to complain. These are very obvious donor perks with NO real level of unfairness and NO real reason to be FTP and I would be heavily against them going FTP as these perks help encourage donations.

    If you want these perks, donate. If not, walk (as in to your destination). Simple as that. Nothing unfair about that at all. Donor perks are donor perks. They are there to encourage players to donate and keep the server alive as well as growing and pumping out more updates.

    Again quality of life does not equal pay-to-win.
     
  6. Juker

    Juker New Member

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    Not only do I find your lack of definition for "quality of life" disturbing, but the "perks" that are offered aren't all just extra conveniences.
    Sure, something like these can be considered somewhat a "convenience" allowing you to skip hours or days of grinding.
    upload_2017-10-7_21-18-26.png
    upload_2017-10-7_21-19-31.png
    But items like this are just completely unfair because there is absolutely no way to "grind" for them.
    upload_2017-10-7_21-21-31.png
    Sure there is some quest going around about the three birds, but this guarantees fantastic IVs.
    upload_2017-10-7_21-23-20.png
    I have not played the other gamemodes on this server but it suffices to say that with more choices comes even more unfair gameplay.
    [​IMG]
    You are persistent in your attempts to say that all of these advantages are just a "quality of life".
    upload_2017-10-7_21-28-1.png
    Let us not forget about this.

    Let's make a list of All The Things Donors Get That Regulars Can't
    -Mewtwo
    -2x Epic Eggs
    -5x Rare Eggs
    -3x Exp. Shares
    -1x Legendary Pokemon of your choice
    -All 6 Starting Pokemon
    -Access to Legendary Events + Tournaments
    -8 total PC Pages
    -Legendary kit- /kit legend
    64x Great balls
    64x Ultra balls
    5x Master ball
    8x Lucky Eggs
    12x Rare Candies

    -/boost (Instant Trainer Level 30)
    -/fly
    -/warp
    -/pheal
    -/ev
    -/iv

    -/pc

    The rest of the advantages can be obtained through grinding and effort, but my point still stands that donors have the easy way out.
     
  7. Ordaine

    Ordaine Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
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    Quality of Life (in terms of video games) - Something in which makes your gaming experience easier/faster.
    For example: I play World of Warcraft when I am not playing Minecraft. I have invested in Heirloom items which you send to your low level characters which offer an experience boost.
    Is it unfair for those that don't have them?
    No. It doesn't give me anything other than a faster leveling experience.
    It doesn't hinder others in any way whatsoever.

    I.E. The quality of life aspect is I don't spend as long leveling. My life is easier hence quality of life.

    Donator perks are quality of life as long as they do not offer things in which BYPASSES anything non donors cannot do.
    Example: Donor only worlds. Donor only sections of the map. PAYMENT WALLS.

    Actually that is exactly what they are. Thanks for pointing that out lol.
    -8 total PC Pages
    -Legendary kit- /kit legend
    64x Great balls
    64x Ultra balls
    5x Master ball
    8x Lucky Eggs
    12x Rare Candies
    -/boost (Instant Trainer Level 30)
    -/fly
    -/warp
    -/pheal
    -/ev

    -/iv

    -/pc

    ALL of these things listed are 100% convenience AND quality of life.
    Yea it might be slightly unfair that they get 5 masterballs and some rare candies and some lucky eggs. However they only offer slight advantages.
    -Access to Legendary Events + Tournaments
    ^Not a real thing, they haven't removed it from the list.
    -Mewtwo
    Strong, but overrated. Most don't even use it. (Most likely a future quest)
    -All 6 Starting Pokemon
    Again a slight advantage, but still no one uses all 6. Normally players only have 1 starter even if they have all of them.
    And even so, you get to choose the starter of your choice for both generations when you begin.
    -1x Legendary Pokemon of your choice
    Probably the best out of all of the perks. Honestly I cannot argue against it as Legend is a pretty pricey rank. You have to have the "eye catching" perks.
    Still not very unfair as all legendaries can easily be countered by normal pokemon.
    They will most likely have a quest that includes all the legendaries eventually so being someone that doesn't have these ranks. I am not worried.

    Everything else you linked are just "care packages" so to speak. They make sense. When you run a server, you have to look for ways to generate donations.
    If I was running this server, I would have done the same exact thing.

    The cost to run the server per month, paying devs, paying 3D modelers, paying builders.
    It's not cheap.
    So yes, as a default player you may not be able to get some of these things, but it is honestly common sense.
    None of these are payment walls being that you are REQUIRED to spend money to progress. You just have to invest a little more time.
    As a server owner you HAVE to find means for donations and encouraging them.

    None of these are truly "unfair". They are slight advantages. The only thing it bypasses by purchasing any of these aside from the legendary pokemon is time.

    As much as it sucks not being able to capture legendaries, it is understandable.
    I've played countless pixelmon servers and mod packs. The availability of legendaries is very common and the economy often gets watered down and they go from being hard to get to overly common. So yes, I love the fact you can't just camp an area and wait for them to spawn.
    Yes it sucks that some can only be purchased from the store, HOWEVER they are adding quests so everyone has the same opportunity to acquire them.
    Previously, you couldn't get a legendary PERIOD unless you bought an egg. The fact they created shadow pokemon and made the quest public and THEN added the eggs to the store a week or so after everyone could get them was honestly pretty cool.
    Or the fact they recently added the legendary bird quest with team rocket.
    The admins also do random give aways in-game every now and then for ranks or pokemon.

    So honestly the only complaint about pay-to-win that their should be is about legendary pokemon. Which I understand both sides.
    But like I said, they are adding new quests all the time so don't think it is all that unfair as they will most likely add a way to get them all via a quest in the future.

    TLDR: Commands and items = quality of life.
    Legendaries, yes and no. Be patient and wait for future quests.
     
  8. ZeMaheli

    ZeMaheli New Member

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    Bout time someone touchs this matter........ Its pay-2-win easily
     
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  9. Voultronix

    Voultronix Crazy Active Member

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    Yes certain a aspects are pay to win but do you think you're the first person to come with well planned evidence and challenge the system ? I'm afraid not . If you scroll down we had a battle with a guy for months. If you came from pixelmon to this don't be fooled . This server is extremely expensive to run having several full time developers . Also skipping gen 1 doesn't mean anything since there is no end game .
     
  10. lego10001

    lego10001 Member

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    Jul 17, 2017
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    I don't this server is a pay to win, but I do think that this server does give lots of pretty much cheats to players. I was watching YouTube, and ssundee posted a video for this server, and the server devs said if he could do the 'zero to hero' quest, they'll give him and his wife both epic eggs, and they turned them into shinies. So, after 20 minutes of realized they can't do it, ssundee just bought 10 rare candies. So his gyarados and his wife's became shiny, and he got a Lapras and his wife got a Charmander. So I agree that donors get special perks.
     
  11. Juker

    Juker New Member

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    The issue is that there are plenty of things that are donor exclusive, my list highlights all of this.
    You simply think that free rare candies and Master Balls are just conveniences.
    They simply aren't, they are items with much greater advantages than people without them.
    The issue is that fact that they can have any legendary while regulars don't have this choice.
    Regular: Starts with a Squirtle
    Donor: Starts with all 6 starters and a Groudon

    Having a free legendary isn't just a "convenience"
    My purpose of doing this isn't to force the server to give an equal playing field, I just want to prove the i̶d̶i̶o̶t̶s people who don't know better in this community wrong.
    I did once play pixelmon and acquired staff on a server that was massively pay to win.
    How exactly would you know this?
    Sure, it's impressive they've implemented Pokemon into Minecraft, but there are so many buggy/not working moves and features to give credit.
    Then the next thing they will add are more legendaries that are donor exclusive.

    I would just like you to admit that the advantage donators have is significant to what non-donors can do.
     
  12. Ordaine

    Ordaine Member

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    Anyone that knows anything about running a server knows it isn't cheap.
    That is just common sense.
    The larger the server, the more actual servers you need to run it, the more devs you need to push new updates to keep it growning, builders for new games or to keep things fresh, 3D modelers because the pokeballs and pokemon don't make themselves.

    It's very impressive actually.
    The fact they created all these models from scratch. The fact that a lot of the mechanics are there and even more are being added all the time is very impressive.
    Go try and play a pokemon game without the mod pack. You won't get far. You also won't find anything as well done as this.

    I can't do that being a server manager myself and knowing how things work and why.
    Complaining to just complain about things like this that really aren't a big deal at all is just silly.

    Make actual legitimate suggestions and maybe myself and others might take you more seriously.
     
  13. Voultronix

    Voultronix Crazy Active Member

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    I understand your cause , if you're American it's you're first ammendments. Look we know legendary is pay to win but it doesn't ruin your experience. Rank perks are really good but at the end of the day they're time savers. And if you're below lvl 30 in game your opinion litterally means nothing since you haven't experienced the full game. I understand you want to prove something but you're just barking up the wrong tree. We aren't devout followers of pokefind but some of us have been here for a long time and seen some serious changes in the right direction
     
  14. Ordaine

    Ordaine Member

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    IRONY at it's best xD
    Hate to say I told you so but...
    upload_2017-10-9_17-39-34.png
     
  15. Juker

    Juker New Member

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    I never said that donors make the game horrible for everyone else.
    My point was to point out the large gap between the playing fields.
    The only thing that I said was that donators straight up get a free Mewtwo
    Also, that isn't irony

    I have wasted my time enough here so I will conclude my argument. (Most of this is directed toward @Ordaine)

    Donating for ranks is a huge advantage for those players.
    This is especially true since there are lots of these advantages that are not accessible whatsoever to non-donors.
    Donators do not directly influence the gameplay of others but do make regular players feel inadequate when it comes to the endgame.
    Your argument saying donators don't have advancements in any way is invalid since you don't address the main points I put across.
    Your claim of being a "server manager" is either complete crap or you "own" a server that spends it's money stupidly.
    Your point that servers cost a lot to run doesn't say anything about your point that the donor ranks aren't pay-to-win.
    If anything, you basically imply that the server has to give lots of perks to expensive ranks to entice people into buying them because they need lots of money to manage the server.

    I don't understand how you can't see something that is painfully obvious.
     
  16. Ordaine

    Ordaine Member

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    I never said that. I said and quote "unfair advantage".
    You donate and you get perks. That is literally common sense. Without donations, there wouldn't be a server.
    The better the perks, the more it is going to cost and the more it is going to help the server. Also common sense.

    Wrong and wrong.
    Being a GOOD server manager means you know what you have to do in order for a server to grow as well as flourish.
    Giving commands, bonus items, and more as donation perks is not unfair in anyway and 99% of the servers out there do it.
    Go look at the most popular servers to smaller servers.
    Everyone does it. That is how the server exists and survives and grows.
    Without donations, there wouldn't be a server.
    And donations never go into anyones pockets.
    Donations go towards server Devs, server costs to run, Builders, Modelers.
    The $$$ adds up very quickly.
    upload_2017-10-9_18-50-35.png

    You are clearly mixing up my points.
    That was in reference to your question on how you know a server costs a lot to run.
    upload_2017-10-9_18-52-24.png
    upload_2017-10-9_18-51-34.png

    You should really stay on point and try and keep track of the topics if you want your arguments to be taken seriously...

    You have wasted a lot of time continually saying the same thing over and over and over.
    Just because you say something is unfair, doesn't make it so.
    It is also painfully obvious you are complaining to complain.
    There is nothing wrong with donation perks.
    You get commands that literally make things slightly faster. And the things they make faster, all non donors can do ALL of these things. They just require slightly more time.
    Getting a free pokemon... Okay? Guess what? They are releasing a way to get that Mewtwo "Free" via a quest.

    Honestly your entire rant about pay-to-win just looks like a giant complaint about how you didn't get your participation trophy.

    You haven't even mentioned any way to fix this. All you have been arguing is that it is pay-to-win.
    So long story short, your complaint will never be taken seriously as it is just that. A complaint.
    Zero suggestions.
    "This system is unfair because... blah blah blah."
    Okay, you've gone blue in the face explaining how "unfair" it is. What are your thoughts and suggestions on making it less "unfair"?